How do you feel about Paladins?

Ghandt
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:41 pm

How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Ghandt Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:02 pm

All martial classes except for paladin get Tumble (Bias AF). Clerics get a COOLDOWN based Smite, Paladins get 4 smites a day. Terrible class features, seriously who's worried about curing diseases and fast heal 3 a few/once times a day when you have cure disease potions and items that possess regen 4 on them. A 15th level Paladin is capped at 3rd level spells, where as a 10th level blackguard and assassin have up to 4th level spells. Spirit of Combat is a gimp +3 AB 1x a day. I personally think there is an extreme balance issue here.
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SheErik
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby SheErik Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 pm

We should have buff as heck Paladins to cope with the amount of penalty they face already ICly on this server. 6-second cooldown Smite Evil for all!
Necrobro
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Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:35 am

Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Necrobro Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:32 am

I don't see anything wrong with giving them a cooldown based smite.
It's not like it's a very attractive class concept wise due to the nature of the server.
Some of the paladin only kaedrin spells are bretty good, though.
Silmaril
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Silmaril Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:59 am

I don't think they need a buff.

A simple level 15 Aasimar paladin, using only minute/level spells, would have:

44 AC with +3s, 49 AC with +4s, 56 AC with Divine Shield. They also have access to Uncanny Dodge via a round/level spell. You could pick up CE/ICE post level 15 as well. +5 vs evil also seems to be pretty common on vendors, so you could push this higher against those characters.

38 AB with +6 STR. The build I tossed together ends with 19 STR, so an Ioun Stone (lol) could buff this to 39, 41 with a +8 Strength round/level spell. This changes to 45/48AB when smiting. -3 if power attacking.

25 average damage when hitting with a longsword. 32 with Divine Might, 47 with Smiting.

HP would be ~300.

In addition, Dispel Magic is useful with a 15 CL cap. They'll be able to strip UMD buffs easily, and will still dispel full CL casters with ~20% success chance per spell.

Cleric smite is also going to be once a round.

Paladin can smite 3 times (4 with haste) in one round. He'll also have keen on his long sword via spells.

As well, Remove Disease spell functions as Lesser Restoration too. Spirit of Combat is +3 to the paladin and his party. Fear Immunity is nothing to scoff at either.
Last edited by Silmaril on Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Khazrak
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Khazrak Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:08 pm

Mm.

Quite frankly, given the server setting and the situation paladins are thrown in, and how easy it must be to Fall on one given the conflict between your Code and the "Don't Do Anything Stupid" clause, and given how there's a ton of evil characters (or evil wearing neutral alignments for convenience reasons), well... chances are paladins need as much help as they can get in the EVERYTHING department.

A cooldown-based smite is a start. Spellcasting to match Assassins and Blackguards would also be nice, as IIRC those classes get spellcasting faster than the paladin does here.

Overall, they're pretty strong as Silmaril points out, but you have to consider what RPing a paladin in Skullport means. It's not an easy thing, and I imagine DM'd events involving a paladin will lead to the need for Atonement spells or the like. And even if you're not need Atonement spells, think of all the jobs and events you can't take part in due to alignment issues. You're pretty limited.

Now, it's not impossible to play a paladin on this server, but when I was at the character creation screen debating whether to roll up a paladin, I honestly thought "There's no real reason to play one here." I love paladins, and played them happily on the Athkatla and Tales of the Moonsea iterations (before real life stepped in + I had a realistic reason for my paladin to be dead after he made poor decisions in RP). But here, in Skullport, no sane paladin would consider staying around. The only place a paladin might be able to stay safely in is the Promenade, and even then... I don't know.

Basically, just consider that Paladin = public enemy #1 in Skullport, is at high risk of Falling due to conflicts between good sense and his Code, will likely be targeted by evil players for hired murder, and in general is less 'hard mode' than 'insane ironman mode' on Skullport. If the paladin class gets buffed and feels a bit OP for it, so be it.
CriticalFailure
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby CriticalFailure Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Personally, I don't buy this "paladins should be OP because they're in an evil place" logic. I don't think it's a good idea to compensate certain RP limitations with mechanical advantages. A few years ago I played a witch on a server where witches would get burnt at the stake, no questions asked. It was great fun RPing a secretive character and keeping my abilities hidden from the world, but it never crossed my mind to ask for a buff to my class to "balance" it all. If you don't like how paladins fit in this environment... don't play one?

In any case, paladins are already a strong class, as the above numbers show. I guess they could get Tumble if all the similar classes get it, but it's just 1 AC, so not a game breaker either way. Spells... right. Instead of looking at the max spell level a class can get, look at the quality of those spells. There are great low level spells, as well as crappy high level ones. Cure disease would have saved me a fair amount of gold in Lesser Restoration potions. Do all class abilities need to be about obliterating everything in your path?

Regarding smiting, I think making it cooldown-based instead of per day is a good idea, but then I'd apply the same treatment to all the smiting classes. I doubt that blackguards are going to be surrounded by good-aligned people to smite all the time, anyway.
SteelStallion
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby SteelStallion Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:00 pm

People who think Paladins are weak have not run their numbers. Paladins are actually really scary lol. Paladin though is a bit of a pain to level up, and this is exacerbated by the fact that they are also difficult to play given the setting. I think the best changes we can apply to Paladins are quality of life changes. Cooldown based abilities wouldn't be too bad, someone suggested cooldown based Lay on Hands and I think that would be neat. We'll probably go over their spells and change a few things as well.
Moonsaves
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Moonsaves Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:43 pm

Surely the fact that the setting is so evil and hostile would make is easier in other ways... for instance, most enemy players that you come across that will conflict with you being very vulnerable to Smite Evil?
Modular
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Modular Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:20 pm

The Spirits, I can't say I'm a fan. I'd rather see something consistent, or more meaningful - right now there are similar options for those effects in other classes that are better and these don't feel super effective or worthwhile - not even as "added value".
CrystalDragon
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby CrystalDragon Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:15 pm

First, I know, I'm new here, so maybe my opinion isn't worth all that much, but I'm gonna give it anyway because that's the kind of person I am (Sorry!)

I've seen several good points, on both sides of this argument, that I agree with. However one of the ones I don't agree with is the "if built right they're a powerful class" arguments. Mostly because the argument in general relies on a very specific type of build, rather than on the features of the class itself. For a long time there have been two ways to build paladins, all other builds are considered sub-par because they don't ever really become as good as some of the other classes we could name, which can be built many different ways without crippling the build. The two build options for pallies have always been focus on EDM or focus on Epic Smite (neither of which is viable here for obvious reasons). In this case (going by the numbers published) the focus here seems to have shifted to "Get all the AC", which is great and all, but it's still gearing your paladin towards a very specific build, rather than allowing you to build in whatever direction you feel best fits the character and not having to worry that you're going to be horribly under powered and inefficient.

One of the things I think we first have to consider is "who are we designing for?" That is to say there's never going to be a point where we don't have min/max powerbuilders who are trying to wreck everyone they can. It's just not going to happen, and if that's your jam then coolio, props to you for playing what you like. That said, from what I understand this server is primarily Role Play oriented, which means that a good portion are also going to build their characters based on what they feel the character should be like. Again, you could feel that your paladin should be Mr. Smitey McSmiteface who kills all the bad guys, and that's just fine, but what about the other paladin players?

Yes, I know, the quintessential paladin is Heavy Armor, Sword and Shield, rah kill the bad people etc. But that doesn't mean all paladins are going to be played that way. Someone might want to play a Scout Paladin, who's job isn't to slay the bad guys, but instead to keep tabs on them, or a Protector, who's job isn't to run after evil and murder it, but to defend others when evil tries to attack them. These are just the examples I can think off the top of my head, and yes, they may not be perfect examples, but I think that they help make my point. Some of them could of course benefit from being Mr. McSmiteface, but that's a very rigid build without a lot of options in how it's made, which I don't feel really fits the theme of a Role Play server.

Anyway, that's just my two cents, and it's not meant to be rebuttal or argument, as I said I'm new here, so maybe those numbers reflect a normal range of builds, rather than just a specific type, but I wanted to throw it out there as food for thought.

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