How do you feel about Paladins?

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minx
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Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:45 am

Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby minx Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:48 pm

Right, sorry if this comes across as cynic or maybe even ignorant in a ways, but honestly, I believe way too much emphasis is put on 'builds'.

This is meant to be a RP server first and foremost, yet I constantly come to witness HBAB / high STR builds at level six or so, laying waste to dungeons other classes (rogue / monk / certain type of non-wizard casters / DEX builds) struggle to deal with at even higher levels.

Yes of course, what we're doing here is trying to establish a roleplay platform on the mechanics of a video game. So, matter of factly, things will never be balanced 100% simply because people take a different approach at how they level their characters and how much emphasis they put on the aspects of the game engine and how to 'beat' it or deal with it.
This is not written with a preference or a judgement even about particular playing styles, but rather to keep in mind what we're looking at here.
Do we just want to play NWN2 ? Or do we want to indulge ourselves in a fresh (if oldschool) RP setting that is presented in a truelly breathtaking way (Kudos to the team here.) ?
But I'm possible rather alone with this approach.

Now, question incoming, what has this to do with the Paladin class you say ?

Essentially we're seeing a LOT of posts or discussions about how various classed can be 'improved'. We do. No arguing that.
But shouldn't we rather take a look at how things could be evened out even if a total balance will never be possible ?
And believe me I know, for I run some rather poor Kemo PRCs that offer nothing but fluff abilities.
Improving (if it can be so called) often results in an arms-race of sorts, a never ending and ever evolving spiral.
'Oh look, class XX got ability YY !! Now class AA needs feat BB to counter or it will feel to weak !'
Really ?
In my opinion that's a faulty focus.

And back on topic (and sorry for the gospel), yes, the Paladin could do with a smiting ability that is not uses-per-day but has a cooldown instead, but certainly not more.
Also, when figuring out 'builds', people shouldn't really take +3 or +4 gear for granted, for that is NOT the reality of Skullport for most players.

A Paladin is a tough choice to portray in this setting, no doubt. And divine casting classes should certainly RP aspects of their faith when casting spells or blessing people.
Nothing is more boring than the guy that you see who's clearly the 'cleric' because he tosses around divine spells without ever portraying his / her faith.

Just food for thoughts though.
Now playing: Quinifae Arkentys & Penelope Miresprites
Ghandt
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Ghandt Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:17 pm

Paladins don't need to be OP. They need a boost, I don't care if they get +8Str and +8Cha, (That's just +2 AB and +2 damage +2 saves and occasionally +2 ac and an extra +2 damage) if you think that's impressive then look at other class features that provide PERMANENT Boosts that are vastly better than that. All it takes to make a paladin a piece of junk is dispel magic. That's a fate that should be reserved for Clerics and Wizards. Paladins don't get a Celestial Mount in Game either, and their Noblity can't be RPed upon for in game bonuses. Here are some D&D Quotes on Paladins:
"The Paladin is a class of mounted warriors, knights a cut above the fighter both in combat and in society." "Paladins have abilities reminiscent of the clerics to which they are so similar."
" Should the paladin knowingly performs a chaotic act, he must perform an act of penance prescribed by a cleric of at least level 9 (atonement spell needed on this server that's level 11 for 5th level spells). Knowing and willing performance of an evil act causes irrevocable loss of the abilities which distinguish the paladin from the main class from which it is drawn. "
" The paladin may never own more than ten magic items. Further, they are restricted to owning a single suit of armor, a single shield, four weapons, and only four items which do not fit into these categories. In counting weapons, weapons which intrinsically must work together--such as bows and batches of arrows--are counted as a single weapon.." "They are required to give away excessive wealth, keeping only that which is necessary to meet personal expenses and maintain his troops and fortifications. However much they receive, they will automatically give away 10% of all wealth as it comes in. This will be given to non-player clerical institutions."
" The paladin is restricted in the alignments of characters with whom he may associate. All of his henchmen must be lawful good, and his other associates must all be good. He may participate in an adventure in which he is working with non-evil neutrals only if it is limited to a single expedition, and only if it will further a lawful good cause."

A paladin's divine features are given due to devotion to a cause greater than the self. Their Personal abilities can be just as bad-ass as a fighter, if not greater, as stated by D&D lore. I shouldn't have to rely on second per level spells to feel like a capable fighter that's a cleric.

And Minx, I'm clearly asking for Paladin's to get a Balance rework since they are essentially just very weak clerics on this server. The stuff I posted on other classes was simply to make a point. Paladins do X but X classes do it better than a paladin? Nah. Not buying it.
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rapsam2003
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby rapsam2003 Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:34 pm

it takes to make a paladin a piece of junk is dispel magic. That's a fate that should be reserved for Clerics and Wizards.
And that's really how it should be. Paladins are divine warriors, not the end-all-be-all. I don't care how many quotes you come up with, a dagger in the back of a paladin kills them the same as anyone else. This cut above crap is nonsense and stopped being logical the moment AD&D2 ended (along with the restriction that one couldn't be a paladin with 17 Charisma).
Ghandt
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby Ghandt Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:37 am

No a Cleric should be put out of commission by a good Dispel. Don't go against D&D Lore just because you feel a certain way about Paladins. "Torm, you're such a bit*h with out your spells..." Said noone ever.
The_Yellow_King
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby The_Yellow_King Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:54 am

It is better to bring another class up then to bring a different class down.
Taking away established things leads to people feeling cheated, adding new things makes them more inclined to use them.
As for paladins, they are like a better fighter honestly, with the amount of bonus feats you can get it heavily mutes the fighters core class ability of hey you get more feats, which was already a weak class ability, comparing it to clerics, is just wrong, clerics are full casters, casters are always going to out compete martials with few exceptions, even with the cap on level 6 spells. As the saying goes linear martial quadratic wizards. It's just the nature of the rule set.
As for how to make them better? Reduce how MAD they are, best way if possible would be to turn them into a CHA caster instead of WIS casting, CHA class features, means they can focus on two stats instead of three. Another change would be move some of their 4th level spells down, not sure which ones, but they have some 4th level buff spells that could help them, could also give this treatment to the ranger if they need a buff. The 9th level casters do not need any such treatment because they are already plenty strong.
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rapsam2003
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Re: How do you feel about Paladins?

Postby rapsam2003 Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:43 am

No a Cleric should be put out of commission by a good Dispel. Don't go against D&D Lore just because you feel a certain way about Paladins. "Torm, you're such a bit*h with out your spells..." Said noone ever.
There's no lore that says paladins need to better than both fighters and clerics. /shrug

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