An invitation for dialogue.

Silmaril
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:25 pm

An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Silmaril Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:15 am

I'd like to invite everyone to continue the discussion that took place in Discord yesterday evening about some concerns raised about the Promenade faction.

As I understand it, there are four main points that were raised.

1. The server is predominantly good aligned

Yes, the Promenade (as the only good-aligned faction) is quite large. A quick headcount and there are 6 members in the actual faction that have keys, 4 PCs that my priestess is in the process of converting, and 5 good-aligned PCs we associate with to varrying degrees. None of us are on at all the same time and some have very restricted availability to play. Effectively, we have 3-5 on at a given time.

2. The Promenade has an overwhelming advantage in items/loot

Yes, we have a dedicated crafter. And as that player said yesterday, all of the things they make for the Promenade are available for purchase to any player on the server. They frequently set up shop on the tradeway if you are looking to purchase some gear.
3. The Promenade has an overwhelming advantage in levels/power.

It's true, the size of the faction allows us to clear out harder content that other groups might not be able to do yet. We're fortunate enough to have pretty varied builds in the faction, including a dedicated tank and a dedicated healer and someone with effective CC.

4. The Promenade is not hiding/is ignoring the setting.
I know personally for me that is simply untrue, and can't really comment on this unless someone can provide an example of what they mean by this.
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Xeneize
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Xeneize Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:36 pm

It is a topic that has actually come out several times over the last three days.

I am new in the server, have been here for about a month, perhaps a little less, and this is my synopsis on the subject(as I have already shared about three days ago in discord):

I feel as though generally, there is a lack of immersion from 'Team Good' regarding the setting we are on. It has been said(in different words) that being good aligned in the server should constitute an ideology of 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst' and to live in hardship and caution. Yet the message I read from those within the aforementioned group is different. Instances of open proclaim in the middle of square to be good and greatest at what they do, for example, have emphasized on this point.

Now with all that said, I'd like to speak my mind on the points you brought up here.

1. The server is predominantly good aligned

Yes, the Promenade (as the only good-aligned faction) is quite large. A quick headcount and there are 6 members in the actual faction that have keys, 4 PCs that my priestess is in the process of converting, and 5 good-aligned PCs we associate with to varrying degrees. None of us are on at all the same time and some have very restricted availability to play. Effectively, we have 3-5 on at a given time.
I don't really think the server is 'good aligned' but I do feel that the good sides has a bit too many liberties being given to them on the public face of things. When you are sitting in the trade market and you are able to tell that your character is rooting for team good and that there is nothing stopping you right there, you, as the one playing on the other side of the fence(or in between!), feel awkward or perhaps even a little afraid that you will get out-of-character repercussions if you go and confront the team that you think is clearly favored by the management of the server(they are the ones that can ultimately log into a client and enforce a server's setting after all).
There is a particular truth and concern about this considering some among the ranks of 'team good' are also part of the management of the server we play in. So in the end, we just observe and try to cope.

It is also fine to play a priest and stick to her goddesse's dogma. However I think roleplay is not just about yourself, it is also about the others surrounding you. As a player you should also considers others are here to have a good time as well. So I feel that in a setting where, by all means and rights, the good opposition is considerably smaller than that of the 'Evil' side, it should be reflected in the playerbase. No, it is not your fault that most of the notorious 'Evil' faces of the playerbase are either inactive or have quit, No, it is also not your fault that you play with the most active players who happen to root for you. However, in the grand scheme of things, the setting should be kept in mind above all else. If not, new players, such as myself, are going to feel out of place; like I have been, as of late.

2. The Promenade has an overwhelming advantage in items/loot

Yes, we have a dedicated crafter. And as that player said yesterday, all of the things they make for the Promenade are available for purchase to any player on the server. They frequently set up shop on the tradeway if you are looking to purchase some gear.
I see no issue with this. However keep in mind that some of us would find it immersion breaking to go and purchase from the enemy. Even if your group has the ability to rampage all the content of the server and virtually monopolize the state of trade among the playerbase.
3. The Promenade has an overwhelming advantage in levels/power.

It's true, the size of the faction allows us to clear out harder content that other groups might not be able to do yet. We're fortunate enough to have pretty varied builds in the faction, including a dedicated tank and a dedicated healer and someone with effective CC.
Level wise I would not be concerned, I think levels are pretty even across all current player sides. That your team has good composition is something to be proud of. Thumbs up!
4. The Promenade is not hiding/is ignoring the setting.
I know personally for me that is simply untrue, and can't really comment on this unless someone can provide an example of what they mean by this.
It seems to me that this might actually be happening. From my experiences. When you hear the greater factions(including its NPCs) of the server know exactly who and what your character is, and when you are permitted, somehow, to maintain the liberties of a secretive faction, then as a new player it would seem like I am out of place and can do nothing but watch and try to have my own fun in ways that would not have you involved.



In conclusion:

I think generally, there is nothing that can be done from the part of the playerbase to rectify this situation. Overall, I think players(not just team good, but in general) should keep the setting in mind more often. The things the players can do are limited compared to what the staff can do. If I am playing in a setting where evil is prominent over good, then I would like to see it reflected in the playerbase and through event more often. Right now my impressions are that the good side is living a life of roses with nothing to fear, and I feel that is immersion breaking.


I hope some of my points made sense. Do forgive I cannot give more detail, as I am still new and this is all based on my experiences so far and in no way does it mean everything here is true, but only my points of view.
Frenzied
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Frenzied Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:30 pm

So I'll throw my two cents into it.

I created Heartivoroh to go full Lawful Stupid unleashed with the caveat that he would have room for learning how to not die horribly in Skullport if he managed to not get shanked immediately. He almost failed in this regard.

He did fun things like telling people they were wrong for doing _____, attempted to convert Lolthites to Lathander (oh my god Heartivoroh, why?), made his motives sort of clear in several events among other PCs, and generally just sort of put his ass to the wind to see what would happen. He was only engaged in PvP once over his super retarded practices (Which, luckily for his own sake, he has started figuring out are super retarded), and it was when Owen and Company still retained the level/gear advantage over the pre-Team Good team. That fight was a reality check for the character and it's where he decided to throw his efforts in with Team Good (he wasn't until that external pressure), because he was otherwise going to be backed into a corner and alone.

I've only been engaged in two bouts of PvP on this server, and both of them were brought on by Harbinger of Talos playing extremely proactive antagonist PCs who were awesome, but also characters that were (HoT you can correct me here, but this is what I perceived) thrown to the wolves as short life expectancy antagonists. There were never any breakers or barriers thrown in front of me by the playerbase besides HoT doing cool things, and I was essentially left to run rampant on the server's PvE content like a crazy person.

Kind of like how anyone not on Team Good doesn't have any player barriers thrown in front of them when it comes to stabbing goblins repeatedly for xp and profit. I won't be jumping out of the shadows and giving you a hammer lobotomy while you're farming goblin chiefs, and if IG character interactions did lead to that point you won't be permakilled without your consent, nor will you be bullied into permakilling your character.

The only thing I've gotten through events is two bottles of liquor, 800gp, and about 500 dmxp total. Events are fun, but they definitely aren't a source of equipment/xp imbalance.

As far as the concern of Choco as a dev and having a PC on Team Good: Choco doesn't touch the dm client, and doesn't have a player shitlist. I have permakilled Choco characters on other servers and there is no resentment against me because he is not a giant manbaby. Don't be afraid to stab devs and DMs on this server. It sucks that the thought likely reaches back to some experience in dealing with DMs with vendettas over a PvP event on another server with less stringent staff expectations (NWN/NWN2 community can be toxic as fuck if it is left to do its own thing), but I think that this server's staff are explicitly vetted to make sure that attitudes like that won't show up. Shoot Ostheim's pc with disintegrate beams too, tia. You aren't going to wake up with a horse's head under your sheets.

Part of the stress in this situation seems to be over the level and gear gap. There's good news in this: The E15 system means that someone hits 15 and then is there forever. They may have more feats, but getting those extra feats is another 36,000 experience where you can only get 30xp every three minutes and a boss PvE spawn gives you 7 experience. People at 15 won't be pulling ahead any further after hitting that point. Gear is available for purchase as well with enchanters available no matter your alignment, and you can get money for that pretty easy IF--

You make a build that can function in the PvE content.

So with this next part, I'll be frank and harsh, because a month or so ago I said that PvE disparity was going to come up as a point of community contention at some point and was promptly dismissed as a raving lunatic with soothing platitudes along the lines of "Mechanical power doesn't matter because this is an RP server" and "I don't need to make a good build, because __________":

If you don't want to flop around in PvE content, don't make character builds that are shit at PvE content. Wizards are good support characters. For fuck's sake, stop making wizards. For the love of god someone please make a character that can hold a shield and has more than 70hp at level 10. You don't need more support characters. You need people who can pump damage and someone else who can mitigate that damage while those characters do their job. It doesn't matter if you can cast spiderskin and improved mage armor on the whole party if that's also the only thing the rest of the party can do.

Stop making cutesy HiPSters to try to act as tanks. If you have HiPS you are either a rogue (which can (???) be built as a tank, I guess???) or you have shadowdancer levels, either of which means you are likely not going to be very good at mitigating damage for the party. HiPSters are primarly PvP oriented builds, and if someone is wise to your gimmick (Yes, it's a gimmick) you are just boned.

Stop trying to make gish characters that are going to kill the first encounter of a dungeon really good and then be deadweight after. Spellblades are just wizards that also suck at cutting people with a sword. They get good at some point, but you will not reach that point without getting your ass carried there. And if you go into PvP with these abominations you are going to get dispelled, and then you're going to be a naked wizard that gets stabbed by fighters.

Just make a character that clicks on red things. Please. The power disparity as it stands is because we have a functional party that can roll out and hit things until they're dead without extraordinary consumable use. Our PCs can gather equipment and materials to fund ourselves to better our ability to hit things, and can also recruit other PCs and see them equipped and given XP as well.

Ask in mechanics "Hey, I want to make X" and people will help you with Good Build Ideas. Just remember that if you are going to be wizard #15 or HiPS user #7, there is still not going to be Man Holding Shield or Guy With Big Sword What Stands Behind Man Holding Shield And Hits Things (two very important roles to PvE content) to get you through the dungeons. Poke around and see what is needed, and if you fulfill that crucial role you will be able to run content whenever you want, because the people who decided to not fill in those roles will be waiting for you to log in so that they can actually do things.

----

As far as the whole Team Good Is Scary perception and wanting consequences for being scary to fall from the sky:

Shows of force are a thing in Skullport, and perception is super important. Flaunting wealth, weapons, and power are things that gangs (and let's not kid ourselves, every faction in this setting is at most a glorified gang) do for the intimidation factor. The Promenade may not be 2,000 people like Skullport as a whole, but you also have to remember that they are a major power by sitting with 200ish members. They are isolated as the only good faction, but that alignment difference doesn't matter for diddlysquat when the naked cave lesbians are relatively far away in the Underdark and your immediate neighbors who are also evil want to stab you and take your things. Most of the major factions, as far as I'm aware, range between 200-300 people, and they don't overtly mess with each other because A) Skulls doing Skull Things and B) Dedicating resources against one faction leaves you vulnerable to the other ones. Everyone is looking for an opportunity to blast everyone else, and The Iron Ring and House Tanor'Thal are the only two parties remotely interested in keeping the status quota.

How many times have House Lysaen PCs and The Iron Ring PCs engaged in open PvP? How many PC organizations have gotten beaten down and absorbed into one of the major factions as a power-grabbing bid? How many independent slavers have gotten shaken down and/or shanked by our existing slaver PCs? I'm not omniscient, but I am willing to guess that a lot of these things and similar interfactional things have not happened, just the same as how no one has gone after Team Good.

I don't expect DMs to be doing these things either. If there's something worth doing on this server, especially with Skullport's NPC population being as low as it is, it should be instigated and lead by a PC.

So the lack of any 'consequences' or 'responses' from the playerbase when you have Zesrae hawking wares in the square with three plate-armored mooks standing behind her mean-mugging people? It's because there are three armored mooks standing there mean-mugging people, and the player response is effectively going to be the same response you get out of the NPCs: Some things aren't worth dying for, so fuck it.

If you're not in the position of power, work to get there. Recruit, smash monsters for loot, and get XP. Keep your head low and don't bring unwanted attention from any of the factions on you, and if you're going to get uppity do it with a plan and some proper supplies.
Last edited by Frenzied on Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Silmaril
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Silmaril Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:00 pm

I feel as though generally, there is a lack of immersion from 'Team Good' regarding the setting we are on. It has been said(in different words) that being good aligned in the server should constitute an ideology of 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst' and to live in hardship and caution. Yet the message I read from those within the aforementioned group is different. Instances of open proclaim in the middle of square to be good and greatest at what they do, for example, have emphasized on this point.
Which instances of open proclaim in the middle of the square to be good and greatest at what they are you referring to? I have not seen this at all, and I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but this is rather generic and does not help us to identify problems to fix. For my own part, my character was threatened allegedly by the Iron Ring and disappeared for a month and a half.
I don't really think the server is 'good aligned' but I do feel that the good sides has a bit too many liberties being given to them on the public face of things. When you are sitting in the trade market and you are able to tell that your character is rooting for team good and that there is nothing stopping you right there, you, as the one playing on the other side of the fence(or in between!), feel awkward or perhaps even a little afraid that you will get out-of-character repercussions if you go and confront the team that you think is clearly favored by the management of the server(they are the ones that can ultimately log into a client and enforce a server's setting after all).
There is a particular truth and concern about this considering some among the ranks of 'team good' are also part of the management of the server we play in. So in the end, we just observe and try to cope.

It is also fine to play a priest and stick to her goddesse's dogma. However I think roleplay is not just about yourself, it is also about the others surrounding you. As a player you should also considers others are here to have a good time as well. So I feel that in a setting where, by all means and rights, the good opposition is considerably smaller than that of the 'Evil' side, it should be reflected in the playerbase. No, it is not your fault that most of the notorious 'Evil' faces of the playerbase are either inactive or have quit, No, it is also not your fault that you play with the most active players who happen to root for you. However, in the grand scheme of things, the setting should be kept in mind above all else. If not, new players, such as myself, are going to feel out of place; like I have been, as of late.
There's a few pieces to this. First, I am not interested in fault one way or another. I am interested in constructive suggestions on what we can do to improve upon issues we may be creating. If you have issues with the 'management of the server' those issues should be taken up directly with the Staff, and not the Promenade (or anyone else).

In regards to an inactive 'evil playerbase,' what do you think can be done to change that?

I also think it is a bit contradictory to claim it's okay to play a good priestess but not okay to be seen being a good priestess. "So and so being good" and "so and so being evil" as reasons to conflict with one another is, in my opinion, very shallow - we try to avoid that when we can in the Promenade and look for specific reasons for conflict. For example, specifically opposing a Power Group in Skullport with no regard for consequence should be discouraged, but treating someone that is infected with a plague in the tradeway is "good aligned" and probably would not draw the ire of most power groups - Who of any of them would want an epidemic in the city?
I see no issue with this. However keep in mind that some of us would find it immersion breaking to go and purchase from the enemy. Even if your group has the ability to rampage all the content of the server and virtually monopolize the state of trade among the playerbase.
That's one way to view it. You can also look at it from the perspective that 'boycotting' Beguiling Baubles has virtually no effect on them, so you may as well arm yourself as best as you are capable of so you can inflict some real harm on your enemies. There's a certain deliciousness to "This savage murder made possible by Zesrae's Beguiling Baubles," no?
It seems to me that this might actually be happening. From my experiences. When you hear the greater factions(including its NPCs) of the server know exactly who and what your character is, and when you are permitted, somehow, to maintain the liberties of a secretive faction, then as a new player it would seem like I am out of place and can do nothing but watch and try to have my own fun in ways that would not have you involved.
This seems like a misinterpretation of lore. The Promenade is not a secret, its existence is common knowledge. After all, the Chant (morning prayers of the Eilistraeen priestesses) can be heard in the actual city. Prominent NPCs of the Promenade openly walk the streets. There is a 'truce' in lore amongst the factions, and nobody wants to be the first to break it. However, perhaps it may help to have Staff comment on how they view the role of the Promenade on the server.
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Max Hatchet
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Max Hatchet Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:08 pm

i have one (10th lvl) Eilistraeen who actually had a lot of trouble getting any satisfactory rp (she felt a bit ignored) and ive submitted a ticket for her to join but ive actually not been playing her as ive been concentrating on Maja mostly as there is more good rp around her.

ive also made a duergar recently who is fairly obviously evil and have one other char who is evil

but if 'Team Good' is dominating a bit i dont have too big a problem as long as they are not getting definite advantages. in previous versions of this server there were questions around this but i have not seen it here or seen patterns to suggest it

from what i can see arent House Lysaen and the Sorcere quite strong? They are aligned if not effectively one power? i see big groups of them.

i also dont have a problem with that. the strongest groups should be: The Drow. The Slavers, The Promenade ?

i dont really see the Promenade faction as too big but they do seem well organised and unified which is very very believable

perhaps story wise we are in a period of rising power for the Promenade? that is the story that those players are creating - which is the best way for a server story to develop
SteelStallion
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby SteelStallion Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:37 pm

You make a build that can function in the PvE content.

So with this next part, I'll be frank and harsh, because a month or so ago I said that PvE disparity was going to come up as a point of community contention at some point and was promptly dismissed as a raving lunatic with soothing platitudes along the lines of "Mechanical power doesn't matter because this is an RP server" and "I don't need to make a good build, because __________":

If you don't want to flop around in PvE content, don't make character builds that are shit at PvE content. Wizards are good support characters. For fuck's sake, stop making wizards. For the love of god someone please make a character that can hold a shield and has more than 70hp at level 10. You don't need more support characters. You need people who can pump damage and someone else who can mitigate that damage while those characters do their job. It doesn't matter if you can cast spiderskin and improved mage armor on the whole party if that's also the only thing the rest of the party can do.

Stop making cutesy HiPSters to try to act as tanks. If you have HiPS you are either a rogue (which can (???) be built as a tank, I guess???) or you have shadowdancer levels, either of which means you are likely not going to be very good at mitigating damage for the party. HiPSters are primarly PvP oriented builds, and if someone is wise to your gimmick (Yes, it's a gimmick) you are just boned.

Stop trying to make gish characters that are going to kill the first encounter of a dungeon really good and then be deadweight after. Spellblades are just wizards that also suck at cutting people with a sword. They get good at some point, but you will not reach that point without getting your ass carried there. And if you go into PvP with these abominations you are going to get dispelled, and then you're going to be a naked wizard that gets stabbed by fighters.

Just make a character that clicks on red things. Please. The power disparity as it stands is because we have a functional party that can roll out and hit things until they're dead without extraordinary consumable use. Our PCs can gather equipment and materials to fund ourselves to better our ability to hit things, and can also recruit other PCs and see them equipped and given XP as well.

Ask in mechanics "Hey, I want to make X" and people will help you with Good Build Ideas. Just remember that if you are going to be wizard #15 or HiPS user #7, there is still not going to be Man Holding Shield or Guy With Big Sword What Stands Behind Man Holding Shield And Hits Things (two very important roles to PvE content) to get you through the dungeons. Poke around and see what is needed, and if you fulfill that crucial role you will be able to run content whenever you want, because the people who decided to not fill in those roles will be waiting for you to log in so that they can actually do things.

This is a good point, but since we're being "frank and harsh" let us please not gloss over and pretend that Master of Radiance wasn't hilariously broken and is a big part of the reason for your momentum. I cannot take this "git gud" PvE rant seriously when you knowingly made use of an extremely broken class and a concept that's largely nonsensical for the setting even if you commendably commit to it RP wise. I don't blame you, of course, it's our fault we didn't apply changes to it immediately, but it sort of got caught up in development hell and other class balance discussions.
TheSpaniard
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby TheSpaniard Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:33 pm

Stop making cutesy HiPSters to try to act as tanks. If you have HiPS you are either a rogue (which can (???) be built as a tank, I guess???) or you have shadowdancer levels, either of which means you are likely not going to be very good at mitigating damage for the party. HiPSters are primarly PvP oriented builds, and if someone is wise to your gimmick (Yes, it's a gimmick) you are just boned.
Or maybe those Hipster cutesy tanks you're talking about are acting like a tank because no one else is? I like my build and unlike most people ive never rebuilt, and I have no problems in PvE, PvP, but thank you for your concern.

That being said, I don't want to be part of this disgustingly stupid back and forth from "Team good" and "team evil."Such an inane thing, this is not Twilight and we shouldn't behave like teenagers. Please, leave me out of this I am not making complaints about how much gold or levels ya'll have, I couldn't care less.
Awkward Utensil
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Awkward Utensil Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:39 pm

Zesrae has never openly identified with any one faction, let alone claimed to be a member of one. At best one could peg her for the company she tends to keep; but even then she's been consistently, and exceedingly careful to keep things "business like" when out in the open with them. Whether anyone has bothered to notice that continued and at times annoying sum of effort put into things. When approached to be asked about the wonders of Eilistraee she redirects them to other parties with a shrug (like Heart, because he's wearing his heart on his sleeve), unless she had noticed the potential in them, and she approached them. And even in those cases she beat the shit out of that bush before ceasing to circle it.

--Bit of a ranty section, skip if you don't need proof of hyperbole---

People tend to point at three incidences concerning her and cry about overt goodness:

The goblin with an obviously dangerous disease that she tended to in the Tradeway. Because only a member of the Promenade could possibly wish to investigate and deal with a potential plague, right? There's no way any other faction, or citizen could possible give two shits that a city as densely packed as Skullport might get so much as a bad lice infection. Y'all know how the Skulls would have dealt with that plague? Fire. Entire sections of the city just turned to ash. Anyone with a wisdom score above 10 should have been concerned, instead of having a Mexican standoff of sneers and bad-guy type castings.

When the massive gaggle of House Drow dragged off the elf slave to torture/murder him in the middle of the Tradeway. She followed them to inform them they were being idiots, because objectively; ICly, they were. The setting is rife with a history of drow lynchings and riots that tend to end in hellish end-times as handed to us by the Skulls. You know what tends to start those situations? Drow being dumb shits and acting like they own the city. Again, this is an IC viewpoint, it's fun to flex the evil every so often. She didn't stop them, she didn't attack, she didn't so much as threaten them (Although she was waiting for them to leave him in a ditch somewhere to scoop him up and give him a stern talking to). We even had a bit of an anti drow rally afterwords from the player-base, which should have made her points ring a touch more pragmatic.

A captive being brought to the Promenade who then turned around and told everyone. This captive was thrown in a stack, literally bagged. We took the long way around. No one spoke of where he was. All he saw of where he was brought was a single dirty, dingey prison cell that could have been in any part of Skullport. We were even collectively careful not to mention where we were bringing him. He had no reason to then turn up the next day and spout off about the Promenade as people who claim to know all about Zesrae have told me they were informed by. Someone, at some point, metagamed bad in this case.

----

So come get your shit made. Watch the AH, buy them anonymously if you're lucky enough to snatch up her items before everyone else does. And for fucks sake, stop calling someone your enemy whose never so much as thrown a glare your way. I'm constantly bending ICly because Skullport as a setting isn't about Team good or Team evil like people tend to think. Alignment isn't an IC concept. Shit, you can be an open, unrepentant slaver and she'll still make your shit if only to open up potential dialogue in the future when she'd rather make deals than crack skulls to "save the day."

Being with the Promenade, the Iron Ring or one of the Houses doesn't put you on the light or dark side. It puts you in a group with objectives of their own that often times have nothing to do with anyone else. Make deals with the devil, look to steal resources, seek uneasy alliances, good and evil can be on the same team in this setting. I mean, shit, it's as close to a pulp setting as forgotten realms gets, period. Start treating it like one and have a great deal more fun. All those notions Frenzied pointed out are pulpy aims.

And maybe don't target the overly public singing bard for your slave trade in front of the people you know can fuck you up for it. We practice in subtly whether you choose to believe it or not; frankly, so should you. NO ONE, good or evil, gets a free pass for making a public menace of themselves.
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rapsam2003
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby rapsam2003 Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:16 pm

He did fun things like telling people they were wrong for doing _____, attempted to convert Lolthites to Lathander (oh my god Heartivoroh, why?), made his motives sort of clear in several events among other PCs, and generally just sort of put his ass to the wind to see what would happen. He was only engaged in PvP once over his super retarded practices (Which, luckily for his own sake, he has started figuring out are super retarded), and it was when Owen and Company still retained the level/gear advantage over the pre-Team Good team. That fight was a reality check for the character and it's where he decided to throw his efforts in with Team Good (he wasn't until that external pressure), because he was otherwise going to be backed into a corner and alone.
This kind of stuff is excellent. Well done!

You make a build that can function in the PvE content.

So with this next part, I'll be frank and harsh, because a month or so ago I said that PvE disparity was going to come up as a point of community contention at some point and was promptly dismissed as a raving lunatic with soothing platitudes along the lines of "Mechanical power doesn't matter because this is an RP server" and "I don't need to make a good build, because __________":
I'm not sure I can take seriously a "Git Gud" rant when you took the PrC we all knew was hilariously broken...

A captive being brought to the Promenade who then turned around and told everyone. This captive was thrown in a stack, literally bagged. We took the long way around. No one spoke of where he was. All he saw of where he was brought was a single dirty, dingey prison cell that could have been in any part of Skullport. We were even collectively careful not to mention where we were bringing him. He had no reason to then turn up the next day and spout off about the Promenade as people who claim to know all about Zesrae have told me they were informed by. Someone, at some point, metagamed bad in this case.

Or maybe their character just wasn't stupid, made a good guess, and then the guess happened to be confirmed later. It's not metagaming to be a slaver, get kidnapped, guess it was likely to be the Promenade who did the kidnapping, and then be correct. It's not that player's fault that it wasn't as clever as you folks thought it was. I know the player in question, and that's exactly what it was: a good IC guess.

And maybe don't target the overly public singing bard for your slave trade in front of the people you know can fuck you up for it. We practice in subtly whether you choose to believe it or not; frankly, so should you. NO ONE, good or evil, gets a free pass for making a public menace of themselves.

And this is how it should be – provided said public menace can be taken down in some way. Villain characters can be fun and interesting, for all involved.
Awkward Utensil
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Awkward Utensil Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:36 pm


Or maybe their character just wasn't stupid, made a good guess, and then the guess happened to be confirmed later. It's not metagaming to be a slaver, get kidnapped, guess it was likely to be the Promenade, and then be correct. It's not that player's fault that it wasn't as clever as you folks thought it was.
He wasn't kidnapped, he attacked them, and was taken prisoner for it, and made to pay a price for it. No one targeted him, HE targeted them. It had nothing to do with the promenade as a faction. It was a random attempt at murder on his part that didn't go his way. So no, that guess, if was him who started that, was utter and complete metagaming. There's no neutral party in the effin' world who in the very least wouldn't call it suspect as all get out that it went down like this. Don't stretch to accommodate mistakes like this. I'd certainly like to know in what way they were then proven correct, even.

Shit, there's more than the Promenade out there, even. Just because someone is anti slavery doesn't make them a member of the Promenade, just like I can be pro X rights and anti Trump without identifying with ANTIFA or whatever the hell they call themselves now. There's a lot of nuance and world out there, not everyone is ICly restricted to an incredibly limited number of options; you shouldn't make snap calls like that as if they're the only possible answer. Certainly not to then treat it like incorruptible evidence. This sort of laser focus to these answers is a form of metagaming, intentional or not.
Last edited by Awkward Utensil on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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