An invitation for dialogue.

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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby rapsam2003 Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:42 pm

Or maybe their character just wasn't stupid, made a good guess, and then the guess happened to be confirmed later. It's not metagaming to be a slaver, get kidnapped, guess it was likely to be the Promenade, and then be correct. It's not that player's fault that it wasn't as clever as you folks thought it was.
He wasn't kidnapped, he attacked them, and was taken prisoner for it, and made to pay a price for it. No one targeted him, HE targeted them.
Of course that's what really happened. But do you think anyone would state that IC? :P

It had nothing to do with the promenade as a faction. It was a random attempt at murder on his part that didn't go his way.

How do you know this? It's a hell of an assumption. Maybe... someone sold you out. Do you really know?

Come on...

Maybe someone was followed back to the Promenade? Or maybe the character was just a suspicious, murderous bastard? Does it really matter? We're all grownups here.

There's any number of things that could happen that leads one character to believe (even if they're wrong or were lied to) that one character is part of a certain faction. To claim it was "metagaming" is a big assumption, frankly. You don't have all the facts. Neither do I.
Last edited by rapsam2003 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Silmaril Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:46 pm

And this is how it should be – provided said public menace can be taken down in some way. Villain characters can be fun and interesting, for all involved.
Have you messaged any of our players and asked about taking them down and trying to work something out with them?
Herald of Talos
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Herald of Talos Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:47 pm

I -really- need to read General Discussions more. Just so you all know, the characters Auria Matson and Aldah Mercer were intentionally designed to instigate conflict/tailored with an expectation for minimal lifespans because of all the people they terrorized/bullied/wronged. Auria herself lived WAY longer than I first expected. The fact that Frenzied's pc, Heartivoroh, just happens to be the character who slew them both wasn't planned; it was just coincidence xD (would've given the same go to anyone else who tackled them).

I did not feel griefed at any moment (both situations warranted what happened), and I was happy to throw some minor villains towards 'team good's' community :) I've also seen them work around perma-deaths for evil characters before, so they're being more than accomodating when it comes to pvp outcomes (trust me, I was asked like 50 times on Aldah if I was sure I wanted to go the perma route).

As for the whole discussion on whether or not the promenade is becoming insanely powerful, I got two words for ya:

Solve it in-character *9 int*.

No, I'm not kidding. If the promenade is becoming more powerful as a faction ic (both from a player and npc perspective), it should be treated as such and potentially even act as a catalyst for evil-doers to unite (time to open up some diplomacy?) as opposed to some perceived imbalance in the ever-changing power dynamics in Skullport. In other words...


Just my input on the situation. All my <3 to the promenade folks, and everyone without ^.^
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby rapsam2003 Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:51 pm

To be fair, Herald of Talos, your solution of evil uniting still assumes that Team Good players are willing to A) reach an accord, IC, to end the conflicts (which is fine but against their faction's basic dogma) OR B) allow permadeath as well. /shrug

A large part of a server like this is, conflict generates RP. Because that's half the point of a city full of thugs and murderers and a city where slavery is the main thing.

Edit: In essence, there is no "winning" when it comes to two major lore-based "sides" fighting each other. :P
Last edited by rapsam2003 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Silmaril Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:03 pm

Let's avoid the finger pointing and the calling out of names in this thread please, it will not contribute to anything.
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby edmaster44 Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:34 pm

Have you ever read a bunch of stuff but it just didn't sink with you and you don't get it? So ..there is more good people than evil? What gives?
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Silmaril Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:38 pm

You tell me edmaster. People will play will they want to play. Do you think that is an issue, there being more good players than evil in a setting like Skullport? If you do, what do you propose could be done about it?
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Draugir Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:42 pm

This is not the first time I see a server where the power of "team good" is up for discussion.

Personally I think it relates to what players are offered.

First of all, the good alignment is intriguing because your ultimate intention is to make the world a better place. As hopeless as it sounds in a setting like skullport, the good character will still have a purpose - the promenade want to fight slavery - the very thing that is the most alluring to skullport.

So of course the Iron Ring - the major evil faction should be ready to smack the promenade, or at the very least cause a great deal of obstacles for the goodly faction to spread its ideology.

I've not been active for a while, originally I intended to join this faction, but I have been reluctant to do so, and from the brief experience I had as a slaver, I wasn't overly impressed. It has nothing to do with the players or staff, but how fun is it really to play a slaver? The Iron Ring's intentions are to... profit from slavery - besides from the overtly evil activity - it seems about as interesting to me as wanting to sell apples.

And not only that, the way the Iron Ring works is not ideal for players either. I recall my slaver interacting with a slave that wanted to work up in the ranks, so that he himself could become a slaver one day. That idea itself may be absurd, but I can understand why a player would conclude that it would be a viable goal for a slave - because what can really be a viable goal for a slave? you are someone else's possession, in paper comparable to a tool - why would anyone expect you to have any goals, least of all would the slavers want to hear about it.

So as a slave the majority of your roleplay is supposed to be along with your slavers - who if I were to roleplay this slaver, wouldn't even want to listen to their "possession", as that would be like talking to lifestock. - I'm not saying that everyone is going to play a slaver this way, but I can understand why it is't so viable to play a slave - you can get to grind your way to 15 and be really powerful, but even when you've slain hundreds of orcs, you are still going to bow down and accept that you are nothing more than someone else's posession.

I could probably go on in novels about why I don't believe the Iron Ring is an ideal player faction, but I hope people get my drift, and let me just point out again, this has nothing to do with the staff or any of the players I've encountered during my brief experiences with the faction - even the player of a slave wanting to be a slaver is a great roleplayer.

So I propose that the staff put their heads together and come up with a more interesting evil faction or perhaps put more thought behind developing the slaver's purpose. Slavery for profit is not even close to as interesting as wanting to bring down that evil practice. I know it would be ideal if players just went ahead and made a cool evil faction, but in my experience player initiative need a little push once in a while.


The Iron Ring is a boring faction nobody wants to play, and either the staff should add to its lore to make it more interesting, or add an entirely different evil faction that have more interesting motives than "profits4slavery".
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Frenzied Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 pm

This is a good point, but since we're being "frank and harsh" let us please not gloss over and pretend that Master of Radiance wasn't hilariously broken and is a big part of the reason for your momentum. I cannot take this "git gud" PvE rant seriously when you knowingly made use of an extremely broken class and a concept that's largely nonsensical for the setting even if you commendably commit to it RP wise. I don't blame you, of course, it's our fault we didn't apply changes to it immediately, but it sort of got caught up in development hell and other class balance discussions.
I'm not sure I can take seriously a "Git Gud" rant when you took the PrC we all knew was hilariously broken...
So then where are the emergency changes to AK/WoD, barbarian railgun double brick chuckers (manyshot in general here. Who is going to be the first character one-shotted by a 160 damage sling crit?), the traditional powergamer's rite of base class level dips (cleric/bard usually being the biggest ones here, but other dips 100% exist), and the various other Kaedrin's content things that need to be tapered back? Dragonslayers being dragonslayers (You can make a wizard with almost full BAB, spellcasting d10 HD, a pile of free essential benefits for the trade off an mentioning dragons every now and then, after all)? Child of the Night being able to shift into a 38 str smash machine that can cast spells for 30 minutes at a time?

There was something good available, so I picked it and ran with it. When I made level ten I suggested immediately that either the time bonus be eliminated or that the blind be modified. Kind of like how I immediately suggested that the hard lock CC with no save spells be modified and brought away from that standard and was ignored. I'm not going to feel guilty for using an absurd PvE class when there are other classes that can get out there and solo run equal or greater absurd clearing times on dungeons that MoR still can't shine a light on.

The whole disparity comes down to PvE content. If people are happy with there being a disparity I am also fine with it. But I know that there are people who absolutely are not comfortable with that disparity because of the discomfort that was being shown for the past three days in Discord, and I think that dancing around the subject of character builds and mechanical strength in running the content is being disingenuous to that concern.

A lot of the unhappy comments we saw in Discord branch back partially to this, and I'm not going to pretend that sweeping balance changes will get rid of power builds, but PvE content and a player/faction's ability/inability to run it with the classes and dungeons we have now is a big factor in this.

My point isn't invalid because I took MoR, just like it wouldn't be invalid if I made some horrible abomination of a build that eats the high CR content for breakfast, or if I made this post with a character that is 1 rogue/14 wizard with 6 int for that extra good functionality.
Or maybe those Hipster cutesy tanks you're talking about are acting like a tank because no one else is? I like my build and unlike most people ive never rebuilt, and I have no problems in PvE, PvP, but thank you for your concern.

That being said, I don't want to be part of this disgustingly stupid back and forth from "Team good" and "team evil."Such an inane thing, this is not Twilight and we shouldn't behave like teenagers. Please, leave me out of this I am not making complaints about how much gold or levels ya'll have, I couldn't care less.
This wasn't a jab specifically at you, and congrats on playing a build that you both enjoy and is functional. It was a jab at people knowingly making HiPS characters to try to function in a PvE role that really badly needs to be fulfilled if there is going to be any level of PvE parity. It's not impossible to function in that role, but if someone is struggling to hit the various PvE dungeons I am not going to recommend that they play a HiPS character to try to mitigate damage for the whole party.

Sorry if it seemed like a direct jab at you, but HiPS and gish characters are something that have to be very carefully made and understood, otherwise they are horrible dumpsterfire builds that unnecessarily struggle to do things. Some people enjoy that (Lookin' at you, Dae, master of beetle smashing w/ terrible, eldritch, and hilarious character builds), but playing with gimped builds in video games is usually a challenge that I reserve for games like Dark Souls that don't have an MMO level of grinding instead.

Just to be clear, since I guess it was interpreted that way, I wasn't specifically jabbing or trying to taunt anyone. I was just pointing out some of the super common things that I've seen on the server, and most of those will end in frustration if there is an honest attempt to fight PvE content behind it.
Last edited by Frenzied on Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Awkward Utensil
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Re: An invitation for dialogue.

Postby Awkward Utensil Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:22 pm

I could see having some fun in the Iron Ring if you focused on the political game, not the slave game. Gain power, make threats, ransom the occasional too-pushy interloper off to their friends to make your point. I'd personally rare, if ever, bother trying to slap a collar on a PC, or even NPC. Let the grunts and dog catchers bother with that business. No, I'd be cozyin' up to some House Drow, or putting the lean on them to get in line with my goals. Making just enough nice with a goodie two shoes or two to pull those strings when and if I had to (Hey, you can always count on idealistic idiots to follow through on their promises, right?). Play it more as a mobster, or politician, than a iron clad grunt slapping irons on opportune targets. Again, harkening back to the pulp setting that is Skullport.

Though I'd probably do the same kind of roleplay with the Vhaeraunite faction and throw some mild religious zeal atop it. I'm really surprised we don't hear more from them, as they're easily the most interesting "evil" faction.

Either way, you'll note this wouldn't put you in team good's sights, if ever you were worried about such a team. It simply wouldn't have a whole lot to do with them, or at least it wouldn't be the sort of role play that forces them to act against me. And if and when I DID do something they couldn't ignore, I'd have enough political power to make not jumping down my throat a viable reason to avoid doing so. Much like I do on Zesrae towards existing evils, if even I don't see a lot of evidence of "the game" from them; it's just an excuse not to throw my mechanical wealth/advantage (See: Friends OP) down their throats.

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