Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

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Max Hatchet
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby Max Hatchet Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:07 pm

Every book I've read so far about drow has the drow being very overt about their racism towards all the other races, including the ones in their city to trade. There's even a human they take to Menzoberranzan that they admire the combat prowess of so much they see him as equal to their greatest weapon masters, and talk about him as such among themselves. Yet, they still address him as iblith (excrement) so much it might as well be his name.
i didnt think any of those books were very good? i tried reading a Salvatore book once and thought it was awful - unreadable?

but anyway missing my point - i can imagine in Menzo that a group of drow might be abusive to a human. but in SKULLPORT why would an intelligent drow do that if he wasnt a slave?

there are in all drow cities a fairly good proportion of surface human traders. the word COSMOPOLlTAN has been used to describe drow cities. these human traders are providing a valuable service to the city. they probably do have to put up with a certain amount of abuse but if every drow they traded with was abusive they would find it too much and the drow authorities would know that
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Max Hatchet
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby Max Hatchet Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:24 pm

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Menzoberranzan has a population of 11,000 free beings approx (not many really)

At 1% there are 100 free humans resident there

At a guess lets say 70% are traders, 20% are mercenaries and 10% other

so there are 70 human traders maybe

out of a population of 11,000 what proportion of the drow are traders? 5%?

so in Menzoberranzan it could be that 1 in 6 or so of the traders are human and are an essential part of the economy
khaevil
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby khaevil Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:53 pm

Drow society doesn't make much sense, every fantasy setting doesn't make much sense, and for the drow the official lore straight up admits it.

From Drow of the Underdark. Not FR specific, but that drow are overt racists is well established elsewhere. This is merely a source book admitting the setting makes no sense and recommending for the DM how to make it work anyway, divine intervention:
A FINAL WORD ON DROW SOCIETY
By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all. How can a culture this sadistic, this prone to betrayal and infighting, this bereft of any legal or moral code, possibly last for more than a few generations without obliterating itself?
The truth is, it can’t. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable. By all rights, it should have murdered itself into oblivion eons ago.
It is only the will of the goddess Lolth that prevents this circumstance from coming about. The Spider Queen likes her drow just as they are—violent, vicious, murderous, and treacherous. It suits her for their society to continue in this manner, and so continue it does.
Lolth works her will partly through her church. If a single house, a single family, or even a single drow grows so violent and dangerous that it threatens to tear down the community as a whole, Lolth sends signs of her displeasure to her priestesses.
They, in turn, move to squash the troublemaker, often recruiting the aid of other houses and families (who are usually all too happy to gain the favor of the priesthood and eliminate a dangerous rival in one fell swoop).
The Queen of Spiders is not a subtle or patient goddess, however, and if she feels that her priestesses are unable to take effective steps in such a matter, she steps in directly. As much as she encourages infighting and bloodshed, she grows wroth indeed at drow who threaten to collapse their entire precarious social system. These drow often begin receiving divine visions ordering them to cease their destructive actions.
Should they refuse—or should Lolth just not be in the mood to offer a warning—they might be abruptly stripped of their powers, attacked by endless swarms of arachnid monsters, diseased, physically deformed, transformed into driders, or simply and inexplicably dead.

This is a fantasy setting, and in the setting the drow are overt racists. In every city, on the surface when they aren't in their own cities — everywhere. Even if it were unbelievable that traders would keep trading under these circumstances, that doesn't really matter. It's the lore developed by the setting authors and in this setting the drow treat everyone like crap (and refer to them as crap) yet they keep trading anyway. It's like Star Trek ignoring inertia. They do it for story setting reasons and try to work around it by mentioning intertial dampers a couple times. The audience either goes with the flow, or perhaps they can't get over it, but either way that's the setting.

To address the original question: a conditional yes, another conditional yes, and not only no but quite the opposite. It inhibits players grouping, it inhibits players socializing, but it drives story. So, is this a social server where everyone just gets together to grind XP bags and farm loot pinatas, or is it a roleplay server? If it's a roleplay server then the answer is no to all three, it's not too much because good story requires conflict. Even "The Cat in the Hat" has the fish complaining about everything the cat does.

I'm not a DM, so setting lore is not my decision. This post is really addressed more to the DMs than anyone else.

If this was a small group that wanted to make their own lore, then you can change it and no big deal. But it's not. There are dozens of people relying on that lore, and changes need to be kept as rare as possible so there aren't an excess of lore alterations for people to read through.

I suspect the reason the designers put in such racism is to drive conflict, because that is what drives story. No one wants to read about a bunch of care bears sitting around drinking tea and eating crumpets. I highly advise against changing lore that drives conflict, which is what makes for good story, to something removing conflict, resulting in less story motivation. Unless you just want everyone to get along, which I rather doubt for a server set in Skullport.

I not only fully agree with the lore in this instance, I strongly caution against altering setting lore in general. This is material developed by professional game designers, to create a fantasy story setting, and should be treated as expert opinion. There's a whole group of them bouncing ideas off each other. Probably centuries of combined experience in developing setting lore when it comes to drow. Pause long enough to consider if that bunch of experts might know a thing or two about what makes for a good setting.
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Max Hatchet
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby Max Hatchet Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:08 pm


drow are overt racists
i didnt say they werent generally i just said a drow who doesnt cover it up at least a bit in a place like skullport is a bit stupid or a fanatic

drow are also generally meant to be subtle, manipulative and devious
TheSpaniard
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby TheSpaniard Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:38 am


drow are overt racists
i didnt say they werent generally i just said a drow who doesnt cover it up at least a bit in a place like skullport is a bit stupid or a fanatic

drow are also generally meant to be subtle, manipulative and devious
Not at all, as the NPC tells you when you first enter SKullport, this is a place that crushes most independent workers and advises you find a faction to call your own. Being a Drow, the easiest factions to join within the city limits , if you're concerned about survival and fitting in, are Lolthite factions.
DirtyGoblin
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby DirtyGoblin Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:46 am

Or visit Malakuiths townhouse near the Deep fires, and join the Dark Dagger.
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Max Hatchet
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby Max Hatchet Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:31 am


drow are overt racists


i didnt say they werent generally i just said a drow who doesnt cover it up at least a bit in a place like skullport is a bit stupid or a fanatic

drow are also generally meant to be subtle, manipulative and devious


Not at all, as the NPC tells you when you first enter SKullport, this is a place that crushes most independent workers and advises you find a faction to call your own. Being a Drow, the easiest factions to join within the city limits , if you're concerned about survival and fitting in, are Lolthite factions.



But only Lolthite drow will want to join the Lolthite faction generally?
So this depends on what proportion of the drow in Skullport are Lolthite?
Can we try and put a finger on that?

Are 90% of the Drow in Skullport Lolthite? Leaving 9% Eilstraeen and 1% Vhaeraunite?
Or 80% Lolthite? 10% Eilstraeen and 10% Vhaeraunite?
Or 50% Lolthite? 10% Eilstraeen and 30% Vhaeraunite and 10% Other?
or something else? :)


This partly boils down to the fact that we dont have a player Vhaeraunite faction when we should have. People just dont want to play them which is a shame. On Dalelands Beyond they should have been a strong faction too considering that the Cormanthor is so dominated by them. (The FRCS says that 47% of the Cormanthor population of 154,000 are drow and that only 1000 are Lolthite)

and i would say as an obvious amendment that really NO LOLTHlTE DROW SHOULD ASSOClATE WlTH DARTHlR

(and that really only Eilistraeen elves and drow would have a strong rp reason to associate readily and easily )
TheSpaniard
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby TheSpaniard Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:13 pm



This partly boils down to the fact that we dont have a player Vhaeraunite faction when we should have. People just dont want to play them which is a shame. On Dalelands Beyond they should have been a strong faction too considering that the Cormanthor is so dominated by them. (The FRCS says that 47% of the Cormanthor population of 154,000 are drow and that only 1000 are Lolthite)

and i would say as an obvious amendment that really NO LOLTHlTE DROW SHOULD ASSOClATE WlTH DARTHlR

(and that really only Eilistraeen elves and drow would have a strong rp reason to associate readily and easily )
Who says there isn't? Vhaeraunites are supposed to be secretive, they're not the type to announce themselves.
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Max Hatchet
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby Max Hatchet Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:28 am



This partly boils down to the fact that we dont have a player Vhaeraunite faction when we should have. People just dont want to play them which is a shame. On Dalelands Beyond they should have been a strong faction too considering that the Cormanthor is so dominated by them. (The FRCS says that 47% of the Cormanthor population of 154,000 are drow and that only 1000 are Lolthite)

and i would say as an obvious amendment that really NO LOLTHlTE DROW SHOULD ASSOClATE WlTH DARTHlR

(and that really only Eilistraeen elves and drow would have a strong rp reason to associate readily and easily )
Who says there isn't? Vhaeraunites are supposed to be secretive, they're not the type to announce themselves.

A fair point and I can understand that some may infiltrate Lysaen but it doesnt really contradict my point that it may not be the case that most drow will want to join Lysaen


I've actually made three different drow who've tried to join Lysaen but for different reasons have failed. One was my OOC fuck up, one was an 'unfortunate series of events' of rp, the other I'm unsure of the reason.
Two were genuine Lolthites and one (Luna) was an infiltrator but not a very good one.
Have tried! :D

Sorry to everyone this has gone off subject
DirtyGoblin
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Re: Does "racism" RP prevent players from grouping up/socializing/developing plots too much?

Postby DirtyGoblin Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:49 am

Maybe you just fail to portray drow in the way that the majority have agreed upon as lore friendly, or simply haven't managed to make a drow PC that fits the ideal.

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